Hello, photography lovers and welcome to another episode of The Fashion Photography Podcast.

It’s time for part two of our interview with Mandy Stoller.
She’s a beauty and products photographer.

And in the first part of our interview, she told us how to find the perfect client.

And this is also our main topic today. So we’ll continue on that note.
And also talk about the differences between starting as a photographer and also working as a professional, the meaning of fake it till you make it and when exactly is the moment to start investing in gear?

This and much more in today’s episode with me, your host, Virginia.
The fashion photography podcast is provided to you by the gorgeous producer – George

And now it’s time for a podcast!

Virginia Y:
When you’re still trying to find yourself as a photographer to build your portfolio, you are the one who is supposed to come up with the ideas. You don’t have a prop stylist, you’re probably doing everything by yourself. Was it like that for you?

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, definitely. And I have a degree in fine art. So for me like coming up with the concepts or even really do enjoy styling because I can do things that are sculptural or painterly with the makeup. Of course, when I work with a client, though, it’s better for me to have a stylist on set, let me do it. So I can focus photography. But I do still enjoy doing test shoots with product where I play around with it. But yeah, in the beginning, it definitely was all me coming up with the concepts and it’s a lot of work really

Virginia Y
Give us a little bit of spice over here. Tell us when you have this prop stylist? Is it like food photography, do you usually use products that are completely different from the products that you are showing on a photo to make the whole thing.

Mandy Stoller
I think there’s a law in the United States where you’re supposed to use at least 30% of the product. So we do have to use some of it. But I would say for test shoots have definitely use paint or other products like shampoo and replace of like a skincare product or something that’s cheaper that I can get a large volume of to create something interesting, because sometimes some brands that I’ve shot with, we have had to use other products that weren’t their actual product because of how expensive their product is. And they just didn’t have like a huge volume of it for us to create the specific concept that they had.

Virginia Y
Even they couldn’t bought their own product. Chris, I’m kidding. But yeah, I completely understand and tell me what was the most unexpected product you use to replace the one that you need on the photo, something that you were like, well, I never even thought about it.

Mandy Stoller
I’ll talk about a test shoot with one product, it was a skincare product that I used just like dollar store shampoo and replace of expensive skincare. And then another thing was with the lipstick, I used acrylic paint, so that could get really nice painterly strokes, but that that was a little bit more difficult with the viscosity of their specific lipstick.

Virginia Y
You’re like the literal proof that a person doesn’t need the most expensive things to build a portfolio and to hard working with great companies.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, it’s definitely think it’s true. In the beginning, I just use whatever I could shine a light and natural light. Of course, I did have like a decent camera because in the beginning, I had the five g Mark three. And when I started shooting in studio, just use the lights that were available, which were alien bees. So I definitely think you can produce a high quality portfolio with these things. It’s just I do prefer using the professional equipment. And it just makes things run like so much smoother, easier. Yeah, and there’s just more consistency, especially with Y day when he is preferred or vs. Alien bees.

Virginia Y
That’s true. I have probably shared this during all these years of this podcast. But when I was studying at the University, I finished my whole BA with a simple boat. Yeah, and all of my colleagues were laughing about it. But the truth is, once you know how to use a simple bulb, nothing can stand on your way. And, of course, it’s so much better to use the professional lighting everything to be on a certain level. It’s much better. But the best part is that I simply know that if something happened, for some reason, I will know how to handle the problem.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, I think that’s amazing.

Virginia Y
Yeah, I think it’s always nice for a person to start with something that it’s a little bit underrated. And it’s not cool. But I honestly believe that when a person know how to produce, like you said, a quality photo, which is the basic things that he or she has around, it’s just it’s a proof that this photographer is going to have a bright future.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, yeah, definitely agree. And also, I think another important part is you don’t want to invest a lot of money and expensive equipment before you have the clients to justify. Yeah, because it’s a lot of out of pocket expense that you don’t know, in the beginning, if it’s going to get paid back. Unless you have like extra cash laying around, you can just throw it around and buy expensive equipment than I would advise against it until you to have those clients where they’re paying you like thousands of dollars a day. And it’s no big deal to just go by like 1000 or $2,000. Light.

Virginia Y
Yeah, definitely. Plus throwing money around is not a good strategy for for like a sustainable business. Yeah. What’s the biggest difficulty about shooting product photography, in your opinion? And then I’m going to ask you the same question, beauty, because it’s obviously a little bit out of your comfort zone. And I really like that.

Mandy Stoller
So the most difficult thing about product photography, I would say is lighting the products properly, especially if you have glass or highly reflective material, like metallic or something that can be complicated just to get it to look really good. And then to also do stylistic lighting with that. So a lot of times, you know, might have to take multiple photos and then

Virginia Y
stitch them together.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, just to get this specific what that’s necessary.

Virginia Y
And what about the beautiful photography? What’s the hardest part for you,

Mandy Stoller
I would say the hardest part with beauty photography, is probably get really comfortable shooting with specific lighting with beauty. And I’ll just like keep using that specific style. And I think for me, it’s getting out of my comfort zone and be like, Okay, I’m going to experiment on this tissue and try something different than have it done before. I think for me, because I really want to make sure that I produce high quality for the team every time I don’t want them to be disappointed. So I get like really nervous. But I mean, if it doesn’t work out, I can just switch the lighting. It’s not the end of the world, we have to stick with that specific style the old time

Virginia Y
for it, then the good thing is, then you’re testing all the time. Yeah. So tell us about your team, do you work with the same people or you use different because the quantity of your work is quite high. So I don’t know if there is a makeup artist who can keep up with that.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, I do usually work with the same makeup artists, there’s like a few that I work with. But there’s one that we work with pretty regularly. And I really like her work. And she just really understands how to apply makeup. So that doesn’t like to kick the line. And we can get like really nice, high quality skin. And then also she just really understands people’s facial features and what will look good on them and what won’t. So if I had an idea, like, Oh, I really want to shoot this specific I look, she’ll be like, well, I don’t think it’s going to work on her because of her eye shape. But we could do this instead. So I really trust her. She’s very professional, she has a expertise to make sure that our images turned out really great.

Virginia Y
Let’s give this awesome makeup artist a shout out what’s her Instagram?

Mandy Stoller
Francey Lux is amazing. Yeah.

Virginia Y
Interesting that you mentioned the facial features, because maybe not everyone is suitable for beauty photography. What’s your opinion? Do you think that every face is okay, on a cropped super tight image? There is a hint in the question.

Mandy Stoller
I don’t think so I think that I’ve worked with different models where some of them look better for their way. Others, it’s like, we can get really beautiful shots super close up, which is always good. But think just like understanding people’s facial features and what angles complement them the best is also really important and do work with more experienced models. Of course, they already know that. Yeah. It’s just more difficult with newer models to get them to under stand still your head back this way or chin down.

Virginia Y
A lot of explanation. That’s what it takes. But you need to be very patient for that.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, sure.

Virginia Y
You sound like you’re very patient person.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, I think so.

Virginia Y
You said then your retouching the product, human. I guess you’re very patient person.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, I really enjoy touching product, I just make taking things to the next level and spending a lot of time on all the details.

Virginia Y
How much time does it usually take you to retouch a product photo,

Mandy Stoller
it can take anywhere from an hour to I’ve even worked on some images for 12 hours. It was like the campaign image and there was multiple products and the shy and they’re highly reflective and had to do a lot of compositing and rendering just a lot of magic to get that to look as good as possible.

Virginia Y
Do you want to help us for the people that are going to are planning to shoot product photography to have like a set of props that you usually use for your product photography, some useful little things that are going to help simply everyone

Mandy Stoller
you know think you definitely all needs gloves to make sure that you’re not getting fingerprints on the product and compressed air to spray off. And he does it will save a lot of time and post. And also if you have there’s like museum wax that you can get a very specific type. It’s almost kind of dental wax that you can use to prop up products, weathers stick them on to each other. And I think that’s really great, because it doesn’t stick to the product too much that he said. They’re called sites, and they stick to paper really badly.

Virginia Y
And do you have favorite place and you’re buying those from,

Mandy Stoller
I usually just get a lot of stuff off of Amazon just sell the convenience.

Virginia Y
What’s your most and favorite tool to use when you’re shooting product photography, I’ve seen those levels, I don’t know how they’re called

Mandy Stoller
patches. Mm hmm. I use those I have a very large set of just all types of different shapes of specialists and paint brushes that I can use to create lots of different textures with the makeup. And I think that’s really important to have a lot of different shapes because you can’t really create the exact texture or swatch that you want with just one palette and I

Virginia Y
Since the resetting is taking you so long, I cannot stop myself and ask you what about the product shots and the CGI? Do you think that the CGI can just think the product photography ship?

Mandy Stoller
The industry is kind of split right now there’s you know a lot of brands out there that like really realistic photography that has minimal retouching. So don’t think that CGI is just going to completely replace everything. But you know, there’s a lot of brands like the more high end brands, they want their product to look absolutely perfect. And a lot of times it is like a rendering instead of just a photograph.

Virginia Y
So you’re in between you cannot make the decision. I can feel it. You still want to have the product photography, but you’re not very sure. Yeah. What about the backstage then you’re having doing your product shoots. That’s usually the big brands use the backstage

Mandy Stoller
like BTS photos.

Virginia Y
Yeah, because I don’t think you can help this with CGI.

Mandy Stoller
No they don’t usually.

Virginia Y
Maybe this should be your next step. Just tell them then they’re going to have additional material from the behind the scenes, more material. So you know, nowadays, the social media is ruling the world, I want to ask you what’s the most difficult photo you’ve ever taken can be beauty can be product can be both,

Mandy Stoller
they would definitely be product. I’ve done some really complicated things just with styling. When there’s a lot of products in the shot. That’s when it gets really complex. It’s just trying to make sure everything looks good. So usually I’ll have like a second monitor so that we can see why what the prop stylist is doing. And yeah, those can sometimes take like an hour to just to set up something that has like a lot of products and like a specific pattern that has to be perfect.

Virginia Y
What is the photo that to keep the most time on the set?

Mandy Stoller
There were some things that we shot at hourglass that took quite a while to set up. So I’d say that’s probably some of the most complicated things that I’ve shot.

Virginia Y
When you started working with clients, the big brands and the big clients. Was there something that really surprised you something that you did not expected?

Mandy Stoller
Those are really good question. Maybe him so price, like how much that they want to get done in one day, I would say some brands, they’re like, we only need six photos. That’s it. Then there’s other brands where we want to get as many photos as possible. Like sometimes they’ll say, Well, I need 15. But then you get on set, they’re like oh, and then let’s do this, and this and this. And that’s when it can be surprising. We didn’t plan to do quite that many. And I think that it’s best to take your time when you’re on set to produce quality. And I think that with social media, some clients now they’re just they feel so panic to get as much as they can, because they’re spending so much money that they try to brush on set, which can sometimes not be good for the quality.

Virginia Y
Hmm. But it’s kind of good for your bank account. Have you ever had a moment on a photoshoot when you just have to stop and just talk to the client and explain to them that this is just crazy amount of volume?

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, there are times where I have to talk to them. But you know, I’m always like very polite, you know, we probably we shouldn’t do this because it’s not going to work out like explain to them what we can do always make sure that have a solution. So they’re not just like complaining or being like, No, we can’t do that. Because when I’m on set, I’m just like, Okay, let’s do this, let’s do this, let’s get it done. I feel like I’m like pretty detached, just very focused on the work and how to best execute it. Yeah, just try to relay that to them. If they have an idea, that’s going to take too long, or we don’t have the materials to produce, it Moyes up front with them, because they don’t want to waste time trying to do something just because they really want to when it’s not going to work out.

Virginia Y
Being open with your clients is important for you. And also trying to get them to understand your point of view and what’s possible and what’s not.

Mandy Stoller
course always want to make them happy. So I do try to do what they want, because they’re paying me to do that. But if it’s just absolutely impossible, I do think it’s important to be upfront about that. Because you know, sometimes you’ll try to do something just to police them. And then if you can’t actually do it, then later they’re going to be like, Why didn’t you tell us that? I know?

Virginia Y
And what about the moments you have to do additional shots? And you understand about this on the day of the photoshoot? How do you discuss price because maybe this is going to be something that it’s really going to give the audience a lot of pressure. So maybe you can give them advice on that.

Mandy Stoller
If you work with bigger brands, you can have a contract in the beginning that states how many photos you’re going to take that day, that way, when you’re on set, and maybe they want to shoot a lot of other stuff, you can just refer back to the contract, if you have an agent, then they can also back you up on that too. Or be like, Okay, if you do want to do this, it’s going to be this price. But I do think it’s important to stand for your contract or whatever the guidelines are that you agree on. Because otherwise, it’s easy for some clients to take advantage. And they’ll want more and more and more. And it starts to just get out of hand.

Virginia Y
In the first part of the interview, you said that you worked as an in house photographer, but now you’re freelancing. And many people at the beginning of their career are considering what to do. You’ve done both. What’s your advice,

Mandy Stoller
I am glad that I did the in Helsinki for a little while just because it really helped me. So learn how things work with the brand. I don’t get anxious, if they don’t respond back immediately. Say I send them some photos for review. And they don’t respond back for like a few days or week. I know that the reason is because they’re extremely busy. And that has to be looked at by multiple people. So you can’t expect an immediate response. And so I’m, that’s what I hear from your photographers, they get really nervous, oh, maybe they don’t like it. But it’s trying to explain, it’s probably because they’re in meetings, and they have to show it to 10 different people to get their approval before they can actually get back to you. So I say things like that. And also learning about rates, that helps a lot. And I would say it is very difficult when you’re just starting to get gigs with big brands as a freelancer, because I’ve noticed with a lot of larger brands that they only really want to work with people who’ve already worked with a big brand, which can kind of feel impossible. Yeah, how did you get that first big brand, then, you know, if you’re okay with it in the beginning, sometimes I suggest to people to accept a full time job with a bigger brand. That way you have that name on your client list. So you don’t have to work there forever. But for me, that actually really helped kickstart my career because once had hourglass, as one of my clients, I did freelance with them, but then eventually I worked with him full time for a while that name really helps get a lot of interest from a lot of other clients.

Virginia Y
Do you think there is a particular moment when a person should start looking for brands to work with, or the moment was yesterday,

Mandy Stoller
once you have tested enough and you you feel really confident in your skill level and you feel you can produce quality, then I would say just go ahead and put your stuff out there, even when you’re still learning, maybe try to reach out to smaller brands and try to work with them just to get an experience. Even if it’s not a lot of money that you’re making at least you’re learning how to deal with clients and learning a lot about how you want to set up your contract. Because in the beginning, you learn a lot about Oh, I should have said this. But you never knew that you should have made that guideline in the beginning because you hadn’t experienced it yet.

Virginia Y
Well, that’s absolutely true to usually the customer, your contracts

Mandy Stoller
with a professional. I’ve never discussed it with an attorney. I had an agent before the agent that I was with now. And I would ask her about different questions. And they also provide the contract for me.

Virginia Y
Yeah. And that’s making it so much easier. Yeah. But I think if you don’t have an agent, and attorneys a great alternative.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, of course, because you want to make sure that you’re covered in your contracts have written some before in the beginning that weren’t very thorough. And you can have difficult clients where they’ll try to pick it apart and be like, Well, you didn’t say this. So we’re just going to do this anyway. And that’s that’s definitely happened to me before.

Virginia Y
And not easy. Never is. But it’s a learning curve. So yeah. At the beginning, I asked you, if you had photography, friends, when you were starting, I was wondering, do you have people to talk to path to Wi Fi now?

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, I’ve made a lot of great photography friends. In the past couple of years that and we talk with each other regularly. I think it’s really important to have other people in the industry that are doing similar things is you to be able to get advice from or two or whatever, I think it’s important. You can get very isolated and in your head and be like, Oh, I think that this thing be this way, but maybe I’m just overreacting, but then you can bounce off ideas with people, then you can be like, okay, so they feel the same way too.

Virginia Y
And how did you find those people?

Mandy Stoller
I would say a lot of them through Facebook. Recently, I’ve been giving one on one tutorials to photographers, and also giving portfolio reviews. So that is

Virginia Y
So cool. I think we can find your contacts from your website, right? Yes, perfect. And of course, it’s linked in the show notes, guys. So you also do video?

Mandy Stoller
Yes, I do. So originally, I did want to go to college for filmmaking. And then I just decided to do fine art. But I did still take some film classes and worked with the film department while I was there. And I continue to work in the film industry after graduating works on the lights not doing anything important. But I’ve been at like Paramount Universal Studios. You know, all the Big Lots of worked on and different TV shows and music videos and such. I’ve just continued to incorporate that into what I do now.

Virginia Y
So shoot beauty videos, beauty tutorials for brands, videos, you’re supposed to have like the model with a perfect skin in order to do that. Yeah. Do you choose your models just by polar it with the

Mandy Stoller
client. So you’re casting that way we can see them in person and make sure their skin looks great. And the past I’ve been there for the castings. And with all I’ll shoot some videos, so we could look at it afterward and see it in this specific light. They wanted to us to make sure they’re the right person.

Virginia Y
Oh, yeah, that’s much, much better. I’ve had times when I’m choosing a model because of their Polaroids and they’re coming with like the most awful skin ever.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, I’ve noticed recently that the models Digital’s and Polaroids don’t necessarily look like how they really do you think that they’re starting to retouch them now, which is very deceiving. You can’t tell by looking at their Instagram either, because a lot of them face tune. So

Virginia Y
true. It’s just all phone. So casting is like the one less thing. Yeah, I have new favorite question. People that are listening often to the show knows that I have favorite questions. Like for example, one of my old favorite questions is would you do anything differently? If you were starting today?

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, I think that I would have assisted photographers, and I never did that. And now I see how I could have learned so much more quicker if I had done that. So I would definitely say assist. You can

Virginia Y
Oh, that’s a good one. And my brand new favorite question is what’s the most brilliant idea you had the idea that when you came up with it, you were like, Oh my god, that’s so cool.

Mandy Stoller
I don’t know that ever been like, Oh, my God, this is. But I would say learning to detach a little and not take things. So personally has helped a lot given me like a lot of relief and my job and just like, okay, it’s just a job, you know, I don’t have to take everything so seriously. And I should also prioritize my free time. Because in the beginning, I was kind of just spending almost all my time working, just trying to get better. But then I realized it’s important to take breaks.

Virginia Y
It is. And I think the moment you realize that you don’t have to work like shoot a retired whole time. This is the moment when you realize that you’re growing up. Yeah, just in your career, but in life overall, and how on earth you learn to detach? Because this is a very, very difficult thing.

Mandy Stoller
Yeah, a part of it has to do with the fact that I don’t know maybe cuz I don’t wear makeup. So to me, it’s just like, this is just a product, I’m shooting this product for this client so they can sell it. Like I just think about things and that and that way, and I don’t take it really seriously. I man take it seriously and that I want to create good work, but not in the fact of this defines me, or my life is going to be over. This client doesn’t like this. It’s just a job. Not everybody’s going to be happy. Unfortunately, that’s just life and it is tough to accepted. Absolutely.

Virginia Y
I think you had your moment of growing up. And we definitely grew up with this conversation because it was so inspiring, and soulful, full of knowledge. So thank you so much for this.

Mandy Stoller
Thank you so much better to talk with you.

Virginia Y
That was a promoter interview with Mandy. As you know, you can find all of the links that we mentioned in our show notes. And if you’re wondering where the show notes are, let me give you a hint it’s photography podcast.net. If you want to be part of our society, don’t forget to join the fashion photography podcast group on Facebook called fashion photography lovers. Thank you guys so much for being with me today. And I cannot wait to see you again on Friday, when we’ll be discussing some exciting topics from the Facebook group.